any more offshore fish farms. Francis Mall-mann, the chef, the barbecue king in Argentina, has taken salmon out of 19 of his
restaurants worldwide. You see little victo-ries like that, and it all adds up.
That’s where your motivation comes
from? Yes. It’s not like we’re sitting here all
depressed. [Laughs] And Trump, we’re doing
a big backsliding with this whole Trump administration, but they’ll be gone in another
year or so. I’m convinced of that. Then we
can get rid of all the stuff that he did, start
The Business Roundtable recently issued
a statement expanding its definition of
the purpose of a corporation from solely
making money for shareholders to seek-
ing to benefit all stakeholders, including
employees, communities, and the en-
vironment. What did you think when
you heard that? It’s a good first step. The
ones that actually do it are going to be pretty
pleasantly surprised that it leads to good
business. The consumer, especially with
consumer products, is expecting that from
companies, and if you’re not doing it, you’re
going to lose out.
You’ve said in the past that you could
convince anyone one-on-one that chas-
ing growth for growth’s sake is bad and
that embracing the ideals of sustain-
ability, or responsibility, only makes you
more profitable. If you were in that Busi-
ness Roundtable, what would you say to
the CEOs of JPMorgan Chase or Apple? If
I had enough time, I would just give them ex-
ample after example of how doing the right
thing ended up making us more money. And
the additional motivation was just believing
in karma. It comes back every single time.
Patagonia is a private company. Would
it help your argument to more regularly
disclose financials? It probably would.
[Laughs] But I don’t know. Let’s say you’re a
gasoline company, selling gas at the pump.
There’s a gas station on every corner, basically. Would you go out of your way to go
to the one that was a member of 1% for the
Planet, and on your receipt it said, “Thank
you for spending $40 on gasoline. Forty cents
of that is going to go to planting trees, saving
the planet”? I mean, be very specific about
where it’s going to go.
Probably, yes. Gasoline is gasoline, right?
You can’t sell your gasoline on [the idea] that
yours is superior to someone else’s.
Though they try, but yeah. We all know it’s
the same stuff. [Laughs] Yet they spend millions in advertising themselves. For what? It’s
ridiculous. It’s not based on anything tangible. But this would be a great marketing ploy.
In the past, you consulted with folks at
large companies, such as Walmart, and
came away not so convinced of their actual ability to pursue sustainability. If
we’re looking to create a better version
of capitalism, what do you think should
be done with publicly traded companies? You’ve got to reinvent capitalism altogether. It leads to a whole bunch of poor
people and a few extremely rich people. Ultimately, capitalism is going to lose its customers. There won’t be anybody to buy the
product because everybody is going to be so
poor. The whole thing is going to crash before
the next election, probably. We’re going to get
another huge recession, and everybody’s going to lose out on their stocks. There we go
again. It’s a system that’s got to change. The
whole stock thing is dependent on growth.
Look at Amazon. Amazon doesn’t make a
profit. They don’t pay any taxes. Nothing.
But they’re growing like crazy. It’s all growth,
growth, growth—and that’s what’s destroying
the planet. I’m dealing with that myself. We’re
a billion-dollar company, over a billion, and I
don’t want a billion-dollar company. The day
they announced it to me, I hung my head and